I hate to say this because I truly like and appreciate what you try to teach. However, in this case, you are well out of your league. I’ve studied Muay Thai, catch wrestling, JKD, Aikido, western boxing (amateur and professional, toughman winner, and collegiate boxing champ), and jiu-jitsu. I also hold an 8th dan Tai-Ho Jutsu certification due to my work with the police for the past 40 years. A student of mine, Spencer Fisher, was in the UFC for a number of epic fights.
When I was a bouncer for 10 years, a good many of my confrontations initiated with a man trying to push my chest or point a finger in my face. JKD took over as I quickly passed or trapped that extended hand in within a half second I struck the person with about 3 punches quickly incapacitating them to be easily escorted out the door. More resistance resulted in a spin so I could take their back and apply a restraint. I was 225 lbs at the time, so if the person was vastly stronger or desired to wrestle to injure me, the punches turned into an eye jab or two. I think you’ve seen the results of that in the UFC. It doesn’t matter how big you are, how good a boxer or ju-jitsu practioner, wrestler, or bad ass. The eye jab wins. You don’t give your opponent the opportunity to take you down. That’s from 54 years of experience in martial arts and a vast number of real fights (those with rules and those without).
So your statement, “The problem with these incredible displays of skill is that the skills themselves don’t actually work,” isn’t actually correct. They work incredibly well given a bar situation. In a boxing match, they are very difficult to use. I would have to agree. However, for you to offer a blanket statement is ludicrous.
The sifu in the video you used is Francis Fong. I think his studio is in Atlanta. He’s highly skilled in Wing Chun, JKD, Muay Thai under Master Chai Sirisute, and many other arts. He’s close to my age. Let’s see you go down to his academy, start at a street fighting distance, and see if you could hit him before he poked your eye to make you stop. Heck, see if you could double leg him before he poked your eye. I don’t think you could do it.
You seem like a reasonably intelligent person, so I’d suggest you think more carefully before making blanket statements.
Peter, I’m not going to compare toughness or skill with you, as clearly you are the toughest man to ever live. I will say that you’re a terrible bouncer, as you clearly exposed your club to massive legal liability by striking a customer who pointed a finger in your face. Not very smart, for someone who has collected as many ‘dans’ as you have.
If you are glad that you have studied to face the ‘least common denominator’ in your barroom tactics, then I am glad for you. Unfortunately, the techniques that you have chosen would be trumped by almost any technique used by actual skilled fighters. Circle punch at the same time as a right cross… what happens? What about a solid hook? Literally any punch thrown in retaliation to your circle punching, and you lose the exchange… By the way, those same ‘skilled fighter’ techniques would also work better against the inexperienced opponents than would the circle punching.
I am not sure why you have attributed magical power to Francis Fong, but this kind of magical thinking is indeed prevalent in your arts. What I can say is that my head movement technique was built Philly boxing gyms with other pros. I would slip punches one round, and then the next guy would slip punches, under the guidance of our trainer. UFC champ Eddie Alvarez and I did dozens of rounds like this together… and the ‘head movement guy’ always slipped far more punches than were landed, regardless of who was slipping. The ‘puncher’ would only land a minority of his punches.
If one person is trying specifically to slip, he’s going to be tough to hit in the head. It’s the nature of the art.
The point that I’m trying to make is that if it’s challenging for a UFC champion to punch a head movement practitioner in the ENTIRE HEAD, then it requires magical thinking to assume that Sifu Fong would be “guaranteed” to poke a head movement practitioner in his tiny little eye.
…even though he is clearly magical.
I realize that this conflicts with Wing Chun magic, but to me, it’s just common sense. No one is guaranteed a strike to the eye, let alone a strike to the head… no matter how magical they are.
You build your circle punches, my guys will build our jabs in conjunction with head movement, and we will fuck you up every time.
Trav speaking truth to neckbeards! Imagine that, a cop that gets off on sucker punching people. He “retired” right about the time they started making his department wear body cams I’ll betcha. What sifu he is showing here is good practice for coordination and hand speed but notice the way Kevin feeds into it? He presents his neck when he thinks Sifu is going to chop his neck and he presents his forehead when he thinks Sifu in going for the headslap. I’ll bet you that old man could throw Kevin across the room with his X-man mind powers!
I have no magical thinking, but surely you do. I have experience. You obviously do not. Why not take up Francis Fong on the challenge I suggested? Put your money where your mouth is. Seems you avoided that question. You could probably make some money on it as I’m certain Francis Fong would take you up on it. I met him years ago, but don’t know him personally. However, I did witness his prowess. He’s fluent in many martial arts and tougher than sandpaper including boxing. Good luck!
I didn’t mean to seem contentious, I was just pointing out that you used a blanket statement that isn’t true as is common with blanket statements. Certain martial arts will not fare well against others. That is factual. Most martial arts don’t fare well against boxing. Does that mean that a ju-jitsu or Aikido sankyo grip won’t work at some time or the other? No. They will. That’s situational. I just watched a video of Craig Jones submitting his partner with a gooseneck (bent wrist) lock. Will wing chun stand up against Western boxing? No. But again, it’s situational.
I won’t avoid your critique of my prowess as a bouncer, but again, you’re out of your league. When I instructed a guest that they were no longer welcome at the bar, I did it with great discretion and respect. Often a smile would entice the person to leave. However, after taking a few steps toward the door with me very close behind them they decided to turn. What comes next? Often, it’s just me firmly saying, “Keep walking,” and turning them toward the door. If, at that time, they put their left hand in my face and cocked their closed right fist to sucker punch me, I was first with one, two, or three short cycle punches depending on their aggression. It’s purely self-defense. No liability ever over 10 years. If I had used a short right or left hook, or elbow, it would have destroyed that person. Of course, some required only physical restraint while I bum-rushed them out the door.
First off, you avoided this scenario as well, many UFC fights are interrupted by eye pokes — just accidental eye jabs. So, yes, even a skilled fighter can be hit in his “tiny” eye quite easily. Talk about magical thinking. Here’s a great video of career-ending eye pokes in MMA. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPIikZvHEZM
Honestly, skilled fighters that have participated in the UFC aren’t necessarily good street fighters. I’ve trained many MMA fighters including one that is a veteran UFC fighter. How many have you trained? Search the internet and you’ll find many street fights that don’t turn out well for UFC fighters. They operate under MMA rules that don’t apply to street (or bar) conditions. Given that they are trained in boxing and grappling, they do stand a better chance of winning a street confrontation, but it’s not guaranteed irrespective of their boxing or grappling capabilities. It’s highly situational, Trav. Conversely, if you tried to take on Kimbo Slice in his prime on his street turf, under those conditions, you’d likely be knocked unconscious. However, place Kimbo in an MMA scenario under those rules, well that’s history. Again, combat is highly situational.
I’m glad you mentioned your slipping work. Given that I’ve trained in boxing since the age of 10 and I’m now 64, I’ve done slip training in abundance. Still practice it. Slipping falls under the heading of evasiveness which also includes snapbacks, ducking, rolls, bob and weave, etc. The most highly effective form is slipping while hitting. Again, its use is situational. When you did your videos on this practice, you gave yourself a large area (parking lot) to move because it’s necessary to have space to slip. You can’t do that in a phone booth, in a living room with furniture, or in a tightly packed barroom. Again, Trav, it’s situational. You also have to avoid knees, kicks to the knee or groin, etc. while slipping. Slipping is a great skill to have given the right SITUATION.
I do understand that you struggle to create content for your posts. Just beware of blanket statements. They don’t work any better than straight wing chun against Western boxing.
Challenging an old man half my size to an MMA fight that allows eye gouges just to see if he can poke me in the eye might be in the top 10 dumbest suggestions that I’ve ever received. I’m sure he would agree, but feel free to pass your suggestion along to him so that he can ridicule you as well.
Oh, Trav, you’re so grumpy! It’s almost like I’m speaking to my grandpa.
Sifu Fong doesn’t really have to poke you in the eye. I purchased your knife training course last year or perhaps the year before. You didn’t use live blades for a good reason. We wouldn’t use real eye-pokes for the same reason. You could use protective gear with Sifu Fong and still get the point across (pun intended) for Wing Chun eye jabs.
Btw, resorting to ad hominem attacks really shows your lack of education and maturity — at least in debate. I’m not trying to ridicule you even though you continuously attempt to ridicule me. Debate without emotion or ego to get to the truth. It’s a sign of both wisdom and intelligence.
You and I are truly not far apart regarding this debate. Saying that an art absolutely won’t work though, is untrue. It may make a good headline for people to read your blog, but it’s still untrue.
A particular martial art may be deficient, but it can be applied in certain situations. I do remember an idiot who tried to choke me with both hands late one evening at the bar. I used pak sao (slap block) to pass him on his left side and place him in a standing arm-in-side choke. I could have slipped the arm and hit him or double-leg him, but it wasn’t necessary or intelligent as the floor was hard tile, and hitting with a straight right would have been too much force to justify.
30 years ago, I took a class under Tim Tackett. He was one of Bruce Lee’s first students. We were studying JKD’s trapping. After we were done, I said, “This won’t work against Western boxing.” He totally agreed but showed me several up-close encounters where it would apply. Of course, you know by my previous statements, I did use them.
Even saying they won’t work against a trained person is too broad. For example, I had a friend who cornered Spencer in many of Spencer’s matches. He was a Golden Gloves champ and Southern national champ. He entered three Toughman matches and lost all three with one ending in a trip to the hospital. He just couldn’t adjust to the melee in those matches. As I’ve repeatedly stated, fighting is situational.
Ni senti Nash no first strike. Moving with a strike allows you to absorb the strike. It’s a bit hard to describe it but I’ve fought boxers it’s not one strike its 3 or 4 possibly more. Jesse Encamp does a little on it. Okinawan tae etc
No one really knows anything about real Wing Chun actually, so I’m pasting in some links to some MUCH better vids for people to watch before they judge Wing Chun.
1) Wing Chun must be a big surprise, doesn’t anybody get it? You must not let people know you’re going to spring Wing Chun on them. This is the reason why traditional WC fighters repeat the Huen Sao
(wrist circling) technique 500 times a day with each hand, slowly.
You get close, you touch his wrist, you keep moving your feet and go with him, you circle your hand around his wrist with the Huen Sao technique I just described, now your hand is behind his arm, and your
hand or machete-sized knives take the clear, unblocked path right to that place where you can hurt him real bad soon as you touch him, traditionally most often … in this exact order of preference … …the eyes, throat, sternum, nose, or knee THEN you hit him. Or you pull or push his arm out of the way. THEN you hit him.
2) THIS IS THE MISSING PART OF WING CHUN that isn’t taught properly:
a) The footsweep is SO important in WC !!!!! You can only succeed with it if you’ve been trained to have the sensitivity to fell that this is the exact moment to use it. I look almost like a Judo fighter when I’m
sparring, I footsweep so much, over and over and over. Footsweep him first, get him off-balance so he isn’t covered up, THEN you hit him.
b) WC has EXCELLENT kicks but most instructors never learned the proper way to train with them or apply them. (See video #1 at end of this message.) You usually, though not always, first stress the attacker by making him lose control of his arm or you footsweep him first. THEN you kick him. It’s an exact science, and most of them don’t know it. For one thing, if a school doesn’t have the traditonal WC kicking dummy, that’s it, it’s not a good-enough-to-fight school.
c) There’s a specific .WC standup grappling technique that I never see guys use on the net. You swing your attacker by his arm. THEN you hit him. (Are you beginning to see how real Wing Chun works now? Are you beginning to detect a certain “THEN you hit him.” pattern?
As with all Wing Chun, you can make the arm swing succeed if you’ve been trained to have the sensitivity to fell that this is the exact moment to use it.
3) Wing Chun, like all Gung Fu,was not created to be a hobby or a workout at some gym or some sport. It was used for assasinations and battle by revolutionaries for hundreds of years. “Red Boat” WC was
almost all there was until the 20th century. The revolutionaries would frequently travel on, well, red boats, hence the name. But remember, there are bad Red Boat teachers too. It’s almost extinct anyway, in truth.
4) WC became systemized at that early 20th-century point. Ever see those five forms, or “sets”, like Siu Nim Tao? They didn’t even exist until then. WC teachers just taught you how to hurt people real bad,
period.
5) Ditto with the WC wooden dummy which is so poorly understood by so many guys who just really do over-obsess on it. It’s just supposed to be a useful tool that lets you work out by yourself while arms are
in your way,not your religion.
6) I’ve just torn up guys from other styles with WC, even though I barely scratched the surface of WC. One of them had just won the regional Golden Gloves welterweight gold medal. And hell, I wasn’t really very good at all, i.m.h.o. I had grownup responsibilities and a bad knee when I learned it, and I didn’t work out nearly as hard as I had before I learned it.
7) The man who probably saved Wing Chun from disappearing off the face of the Earth, Yip Man … and I could be wrong here … didn’t actually learn the whole Wing Chun system himself.
That’s part of the WC problem. By the way every single moment of every single Yip Man movie is bullshit. Never happened.
8) Here are the real-Wing Chun videos I mentioned. These are the first videos people should have been watching and have instead never seen. I have better vids stored on my computer, but I can’t find ’em on the net for you to view; sorry about that …
I like this last one because this WC fighter is just basically a regular guy. He’s not a master or even much of an athlete. He fails to footsweep or kick and he’s just a typically overweight guy (esp. in his other vids) who’s kinda getting skilled and wants to test himself. A regular, out-of-shape guy can see what he himself might accomplish here:
Of course you’re right that sticky hands won’t “work” in a cage fight… and it’s certainly not the thing *I’m* gonna bust out on the street.
But that’s because they are drills, not all encompassing fighting styles. People who mistake sticky hands drills for practical fighting technique, and then challenge half decent MMArtists, usually get beaten up.
But according to that logic, flow rolling would also be pointless, because it also doesn’t work in a cage or in the street. If somebody tried to “flow roll” with me in a fight on the street, I would bite them, try to tear off an ear, maybe poke/scratch them in the eye, etc. I would then declare the total uselessness of flow rolling!
Sticky hands is kinda like flow rolling, but for a different range and fighting philosophy. Tai chi, for example, is not primarily a striking range art, it’s a stand up grappling art, kinda like judo – except in tai chi they don’t want to fall down, so no sacrifice throws (check out Shuaijiou to see tai chi technique in a more obvious grappling context).
And there is quite a bit of close distance/ short power striking in tai chi as well (I like to think about Mike Tyson’s boxing style for a modern example of what short power/close distance striking can look like, but of course the way he moves and closes distance is completely different, as is the way he generates power… so, lots of differences).
According to a wing chun or tai chi philosophy, you might do your best to stay out of a strikers range (maybe even with the help of your head movement course) and when you see an opportunity/they make a mistake you “stick” to an arm (for example) and enter, where you proceed to go to work with your locks and your elbows and your 1 inch punches and your sweeps (and maybe even your circle punches, though again, 2-3 might be a technique, throwing 20 is a drill). Incidentally, that’s pretty much the same thing I was taught in my Gracie gym – keep your distance, wait for a mistake, enter and go to work. Except in that philosophy you take them down to the ground.
In that way, “sticking” provides both a way to neutralize a striker’s weapon (because you are “holding” onto it), and a method of closing distance. But of course it takes a lot of practice and really f-ing good timing, which is why wing chun is full of drills to develop that.
Last point. I just started practicing Judo a year ago, and I’m very interested in learning more about about sticky hands and “trapping” (a related technique), because I am a short guy sparring with long armed people, and I want to get better at neutralizing their reach advantage while also closing distance. Now, I don’t know for sure if sticky hands/trapping is going to effectively translate into the Judo game, but that’s definitely closer to what those drills are designed to help with compared to fighting a boxer in a cage.
all the wing chun i’ve ever experienced is stand up only and 99% useless in a fight. i’ve never seen this ground game component in wing chun. i’m really interested to learn more about it. still think the punching is total garbage though. but he did a couple of interesting things in his stand up that could potentially be useful in the real. thanks for sharing that video.
Traditional WC guys fucking hate him for trying to modernise. We did grappling, head movement, pressure testing and sparring practically every class. His mantra is “If you can’t hit, you’re shit.”
Chain punching was taught as an endurance exercise, not a technique. In fact, his combos were typically 3 movements.
Now, maybe I’m wrong, but I loved his classes, and the fact he was trying to see through to the core of WC to extract something useful for the modern world. I don’t think it’s a useless art. I think the problem is the way it’s typically taught, with the mysticism and unquestioning quasi-religious fervour.
Hey Trav! Want to share my own experience about this.
In the very beginning of my martial arts training I went to a Jeet Kun Do gym (never knew what it was, my friend just invited me there). One of the aspects was this sticky hands technique. We even had this dummy with multiple wooden sticks to practice. And we also practiced in pairs, but without this hands bridge, instead it was from the default boxing stance. I had been going to that gym for 9 months, but the technique stuck with me from there on. What I utilised from it is that if someone makes a mistake and is not too keen to pull a jab or a cross back, and you time a small stepback (like the leanback that you teach in the head movement course) and the palm movement right (bring your hand down with a little movement and aim base of you palm at the opponent’s wrist), you can catch the hand near the wrist (slightly higher or at the base of the back side of his palm) and take a hold of it. I can do it with almost every sparring partner I have had since then and in almost every sparring session. It can translate into pulling the hand to open the head, break balance or another kind of such advantage.
It doesn’t work if the punch is executed well, but works if the opponent slightly overcommitted to the punch and didn’t get it back just in time.
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As a former wrestler, this excites me. Hand control, leverage, body control. Almost effortless motion resulting in crippling pain.
And yet, your double leg takedown would trump everything that they’re doing here.
Hurt u like dis. Hurt u like dat
This is precisely why I say , with these kind of striking skills and more grappling and taken downs will fail
Trav,
I hate to say this because I truly like and appreciate what you try to teach. However, in this case, you are well out of your league. I’ve studied Muay Thai, catch wrestling, JKD, Aikido, western boxing (amateur and professional, toughman winner, and collegiate boxing champ), and jiu-jitsu. I also hold an 8th dan Tai-Ho Jutsu certification due to my work with the police for the past 40 years. A student of mine, Spencer Fisher, was in the UFC for a number of epic fights.
When I was a bouncer for 10 years, a good many of my confrontations initiated with a man trying to push my chest or point a finger in my face. JKD took over as I quickly passed or trapped that extended hand in within a half second I struck the person with about 3 punches quickly incapacitating them to be easily escorted out the door. More resistance resulted in a spin so I could take their back and apply a restraint. I was 225 lbs at the time, so if the person was vastly stronger or desired to wrestle to injure me, the punches turned into an eye jab or two. I think you’ve seen the results of that in the UFC. It doesn’t matter how big you are, how good a boxer or ju-jitsu practioner, wrestler, or bad ass. The eye jab wins. You don’t give your opponent the opportunity to take you down. That’s from 54 years of experience in martial arts and a vast number of real fights (those with rules and those without).
So your statement, “The problem with these incredible displays of skill is that the skills themselves don’t actually work,” isn’t actually correct. They work incredibly well given a bar situation. In a boxing match, they are very difficult to use. I would have to agree. However, for you to offer a blanket statement is ludicrous.
The sifu in the video you used is Francis Fong. I think his studio is in Atlanta. He’s highly skilled in Wing Chun, JKD, Muay Thai under Master Chai Sirisute, and many other arts. He’s close to my age. Let’s see you go down to his academy, start at a street fighting distance, and see if you could hit him before he poked your eye to make you stop. Heck, see if you could double leg him before he poked your eye. I don’t think you could do it.
You seem like a reasonably intelligent person, so I’d suggest you think more carefully before making blanket statements.
This comment belongs on: https://www.reddit.com/r/iamverybadass/
Peter, I’m not going to compare toughness or skill with you, as clearly you are the toughest man to ever live. I will say that you’re a terrible bouncer, as you clearly exposed your club to massive legal liability by striking a customer who pointed a finger in your face. Not very smart, for someone who has collected as many ‘dans’ as you have.
If you are glad that you have studied to face the ‘least common denominator’ in your barroom tactics, then I am glad for you. Unfortunately, the techniques that you have chosen would be trumped by almost any technique used by actual skilled fighters. Circle punch at the same time as a right cross… what happens? What about a solid hook? Literally any punch thrown in retaliation to your circle punching, and you lose the exchange… By the way, those same ‘skilled fighter’ techniques would also work better against the inexperienced opponents than would the circle punching.
I am not sure why you have attributed magical power to Francis Fong, but this kind of magical thinking is indeed prevalent in your arts. What I can say is that my head movement technique was built Philly boxing gyms with other pros. I would slip punches one round, and then the next guy would slip punches, under the guidance of our trainer. UFC champ Eddie Alvarez and I did dozens of rounds like this together… and the ‘head movement guy’ always slipped far more punches than were landed, regardless of who was slipping. The ‘puncher’ would only land a minority of his punches.
If one person is trying specifically to slip, he’s going to be tough to hit in the head. It’s the nature of the art.
The point that I’m trying to make is that if it’s challenging for a UFC champion to punch a head movement practitioner in the ENTIRE HEAD, then it requires magical thinking to assume that Sifu Fong would be “guaranteed” to poke a head movement practitioner in his tiny little eye.
…even though he is clearly magical.
I realize that this conflicts with Wing Chun magic, but to me, it’s just common sense. No one is guaranteed a strike to the eye, let alone a strike to the head… no matter how magical they are.
You build your circle punches, my guys will build our jabs in conjunction with head movement, and we will fuck you up every time.
Enjoy your dans.
Trav speaking truth to neckbeards! Imagine that, a cop that gets off on sucker punching people. He “retired” right about the time they started making his department wear body cams I’ll betcha. What sifu he is showing here is good practice for coordination and hand speed but notice the way Kevin feeds into it? He presents his neck when he thinks Sifu is going to chop his neck and he presents his forehead when he thinks Sifu in going for the headslap. I’ll bet you that old man could throw Kevin across the room with his X-man mind powers!
Yea, weird how the guy lifts his chin every time he’s “ready” to be countered…
Trav,
I have no magical thinking, but surely you do. I have experience. You obviously do not. Why not take up Francis Fong on the challenge I suggested? Put your money where your mouth is. Seems you avoided that question. You could probably make some money on it as I’m certain Francis Fong would take you up on it. I met him years ago, but don’t know him personally. However, I did witness his prowess. He’s fluent in many martial arts and tougher than sandpaper including boxing. Good luck!
I didn’t mean to seem contentious, I was just pointing out that you used a blanket statement that isn’t true as is common with blanket statements. Certain martial arts will not fare well against others. That is factual. Most martial arts don’t fare well against boxing. Does that mean that a ju-jitsu or Aikido sankyo grip won’t work at some time or the other? No. They will. That’s situational. I just watched a video of Craig Jones submitting his partner with a gooseneck (bent wrist) lock. Will wing chun stand up against Western boxing? No. But again, it’s situational.
I won’t avoid your critique of my prowess as a bouncer, but again, you’re out of your league. When I instructed a guest that they were no longer welcome at the bar, I did it with great discretion and respect. Often a smile would entice the person to leave. However, after taking a few steps toward the door with me very close behind them they decided to turn. What comes next? Often, it’s just me firmly saying, “Keep walking,” and turning them toward the door. If, at that time, they put their left hand in my face and cocked their closed right fist to sucker punch me, I was first with one, two, or three short cycle punches depending on their aggression. It’s purely self-defense. No liability ever over 10 years. If I had used a short right or left hook, or elbow, it would have destroyed that person. Of course, some required only physical restraint while I bum-rushed them out the door.
First off, you avoided this scenario as well, many UFC fights are interrupted by eye pokes — just accidental eye jabs. So, yes, even a skilled fighter can be hit in his “tiny” eye quite easily. Talk about magical thinking. Here’s a great video of career-ending eye pokes in MMA. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPIikZvHEZM
Honestly, skilled fighters that have participated in the UFC aren’t necessarily good street fighters. I’ve trained many MMA fighters including one that is a veteran UFC fighter. How many have you trained? Search the internet and you’ll find many street fights that don’t turn out well for UFC fighters. They operate under MMA rules that don’t apply to street (or bar) conditions. Given that they are trained in boxing and grappling, they do stand a better chance of winning a street confrontation, but it’s not guaranteed irrespective of their boxing or grappling capabilities. It’s highly situational, Trav. Conversely, if you tried to take on Kimbo Slice in his prime on his street turf, under those conditions, you’d likely be knocked unconscious. However, place Kimbo in an MMA scenario under those rules, well that’s history. Again, combat is highly situational.
I’m glad you mentioned your slipping work. Given that I’ve trained in boxing since the age of 10 and I’m now 64, I’ve done slip training in abundance. Still practice it. Slipping falls under the heading of evasiveness which also includes snapbacks, ducking, rolls, bob and weave, etc. The most highly effective form is slipping while hitting. Again, its use is situational. When you did your videos on this practice, you gave yourself a large area (parking lot) to move because it’s necessary to have space to slip. You can’t do that in a phone booth, in a living room with furniture, or in a tightly packed barroom. Again, Trav, it’s situational. You also have to avoid knees, kicks to the knee or groin, etc. while slipping. Slipping is a great skill to have given the right SITUATION.
I do understand that you struggle to create content for your posts. Just beware of blanket statements. They don’t work any better than straight wing chun against Western boxing.
Challenging an old man half my size to an MMA fight that allows eye gouges just to see if he can poke me in the eye might be in the top 10 dumbest suggestions that I’ve ever received. I’m sure he would agree, but feel free to pass your suggestion along to him so that he can ridicule you as well.
Oh, Trav, you’re so grumpy! It’s almost like I’m speaking to my grandpa.
Sifu Fong doesn’t really have to poke you in the eye. I purchased your knife training course last year or perhaps the year before. You didn’t use live blades for a good reason. We wouldn’t use real eye-pokes for the same reason. You could use protective gear with Sifu Fong and still get the point across (pun intended) for Wing Chun eye jabs.
Btw, resorting to ad hominem attacks really shows your lack of education and maturity — at least in debate. I’m not trying to ridicule you even though you continuously attempt to ridicule me. Debate without emotion or ego to get to the truth. It’s a sign of both wisdom and intelligence.
You and I are truly not far apart regarding this debate. Saying that an art absolutely won’t work though, is untrue. It may make a good headline for people to read your blog, but it’s still untrue.
A particular martial art may be deficient, but it can be applied in certain situations. I do remember an idiot who tried to choke me with both hands late one evening at the bar. I used pak sao (slap block) to pass him on his left side and place him in a standing arm-in-side choke. I could have slipped the arm and hit him or double-leg him, but it wasn’t necessary or intelligent as the floor was hard tile, and hitting with a straight right would have been too much force to justify.
30 years ago, I took a class under Tim Tackett. He was one of Bruce Lee’s first students. We were studying JKD’s trapping. After we were done, I said, “This won’t work against Western boxing.” He totally agreed but showed me several up-close encounters where it would apply. Of course, you know by my previous statements, I did use them.
Even saying they won’t work against a trained person is too broad. For example, I had a friend who cornered Spencer in many of Spencer’s matches. He was a Golden Gloves champ and Southern national champ. He entered three Toughman matches and lost all three with one ending in a trip to the hospital. He just couldn’t adjust to the melee in those matches. As I’ve repeatedly stated, fighting is situational.
Ni senti Nash no first strike. Moving with a strike allows you to absorb the strike. It’s a bit hard to describe it but I’ve fought boxers it’s not one strike its 3 or 4 possibly more. Jesse Encamp does a little on it. Okinawan tae etc
No one really knows anything about real Wing Chun actually, so I’m pasting in some links to some MUCH better vids for people to watch before they judge Wing Chun.
1) Wing Chun must be a big surprise, doesn’t anybody get it? You must not let people know you’re going to spring Wing Chun on them. This is the reason why traditional WC fighters repeat the Huen Sao
(wrist circling) technique 500 times a day with each hand, slowly.
You get close, you touch his wrist, you keep moving your feet and go with him, you circle your hand around his wrist with the Huen Sao technique I just described, now your hand is behind his arm, and your
hand or machete-sized knives take the clear, unblocked path right to that place where you can hurt him real bad soon as you touch him, traditionally most often … in this exact order of preference … …the eyes, throat, sternum, nose, or knee THEN you hit him. Or you pull or push his arm out of the way. THEN you hit him.
2) THIS IS THE MISSING PART OF WING CHUN that isn’t taught properly:
a) The footsweep is SO important in WC !!!!! You can only succeed with it if you’ve been trained to have the sensitivity to fell that this is the exact moment to use it. I look almost like a Judo fighter when I’m
sparring, I footsweep so much, over and over and over. Footsweep him first, get him off-balance so he isn’t covered up, THEN you hit him.
b) WC has EXCELLENT kicks but most instructors never learned the proper way to train with them or apply them. (See video #1 at end of this message.) You usually, though not always, first stress the attacker by making him lose control of his arm or you footsweep him first. THEN you kick him. It’s an exact science, and most of them don’t know it. For one thing, if a school doesn’t have the traditonal WC kicking dummy, that’s it, it’s not a good-enough-to-fight school.
c) There’s a specific .WC standup grappling technique that I never see guys use on the net. You swing your attacker by his arm. THEN you hit him. (Are you beginning to see how real Wing Chun works now? Are you beginning to detect a certain “THEN you hit him.” pattern?
As with all Wing Chun, you can make the arm swing succeed if you’ve been trained to have the sensitivity to fell that this is the exact moment to use it.
3) Wing Chun, like all Gung Fu,was not created to be a hobby or a workout at some gym or some sport. It was used for assasinations and battle by revolutionaries for hundreds of years. “Red Boat” WC was
almost all there was until the 20th century. The revolutionaries would frequently travel on, well, red boats, hence the name. But remember, there are bad Red Boat teachers too. It’s almost extinct anyway, in truth.
4) WC became systemized at that early 20th-century point. Ever see those five forms, or “sets”, like Siu Nim Tao? They didn’t even exist until then. WC teachers just taught you how to hurt people real bad,
period.
5) Ditto with the WC wooden dummy which is so poorly understood by so many guys who just really do over-obsess on it. It’s just supposed to be a useful tool that lets you work out by yourself while arms are
in your way,not your religion.
6) I’ve just torn up guys from other styles with WC, even though I barely scratched the surface of WC. One of them had just won the regional Golden Gloves welterweight gold medal. And hell, I wasn’t really very good at all, i.m.h.o. I had grownup responsibilities and a bad knee when I learned it, and I didn’t work out nearly as hard as I had before I learned it.
7) The man who probably saved Wing Chun from disappearing off the face of the Earth, Yip Man … and I could be wrong here … didn’t actually learn the whole Wing Chun system himself.
That’s part of the WC problem. By the way every single moment of every single Yip Man movie is bullshit. Never happened.
8) Here are the real-Wing Chun videos I mentioned. These are the first videos people should have been watching and have instead never seen. I have better vids stored on my computer, but I can’t find ’em on the net for you to view; sorry about that …
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7bDJIMI744
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pP0-IpDEUGU
https://youtu.be/V7FKprAkK1Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcPvJRC_2uY
I like this last one because this WC fighter is just basically a regular guy. He’s not a master or even much of an athlete. He fails to footsweep or kick and he’s just a typically overweight guy (esp. in his other vids) who’s kinda getting skilled and wants to test himself. A regular, out-of-shape guy can see what he himself might accomplish here:
https://youtu.be/Qogg1jNo5Hc
Of course you’re right that sticky hands won’t “work” in a cage fight… and it’s certainly not the thing *I’m* gonna bust out on the street.
But that’s because they are drills, not all encompassing fighting styles. People who mistake sticky hands drills for practical fighting technique, and then challenge half decent MMArtists, usually get beaten up.
But according to that logic, flow rolling would also be pointless, because it also doesn’t work in a cage or in the street. If somebody tried to “flow roll” with me in a fight on the street, I would bite them, try to tear off an ear, maybe poke/scratch them in the eye, etc. I would then declare the total uselessness of flow rolling!
Sticky hands is kinda like flow rolling, but for a different range and fighting philosophy. Tai chi, for example, is not primarily a striking range art, it’s a stand up grappling art, kinda like judo – except in tai chi they don’t want to fall down, so no sacrifice throws (check out Shuaijiou to see tai chi technique in a more obvious grappling context).
And there is quite a bit of close distance/ short power striking in tai chi as well (I like to think about Mike Tyson’s boxing style for a modern example of what short power/close distance striking can look like, but of course the way he moves and closes distance is completely different, as is the way he generates power… so, lots of differences).
According to a wing chun or tai chi philosophy, you might do your best to stay out of a strikers range (maybe even with the help of your head movement course) and when you see an opportunity/they make a mistake you “stick” to an arm (for example) and enter, where you proceed to go to work with your locks and your elbows and your 1 inch punches and your sweeps (and maybe even your circle punches, though again, 2-3 might be a technique, throwing 20 is a drill). Incidentally, that’s pretty much the same thing I was taught in my Gracie gym – keep your distance, wait for a mistake, enter and go to work. Except in that philosophy you take them down to the ground.
In that way, “sticking” provides both a way to neutralize a striker’s weapon (because you are “holding” onto it), and a method of closing distance. But of course it takes a lot of practice and really f-ing good timing, which is why wing chun is full of drills to develop that.
Last point. I just started practicing Judo a year ago, and I’m very interested in learning more about about sticky hands and “trapping” (a related technique), because I am a short guy sparring with long armed people, and I want to get better at neutralizing their reach advantage while also closing distance. Now, I don’t know for sure if sticky hands/trapping is going to effectively translate into the Judo game, but that’s definitely closer to what those drills are designed to help with compared to fighting a boxer in a cage.
Fascinating wisdom from the Sifu. Listening how he adapts his wing chun to muay thai, jiu jitsu and other forms.
all the wing chun i’ve ever experienced is stand up only and 99% useless in a fight. i’ve never seen this ground game component in wing chun. i’m really interested to learn more about it. still think the punching is total garbage though. but he did a couple of interesting things in his stand up that could potentially be useful in the real. thanks for sharing that video.
I’m not a wing chun fanboy, but I did train with this guy in MaryHill – one of the roughest areas of Glasgow, when I worked there for a few years:
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CbXFF2xomh7/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Traditional WC guys fucking hate him for trying to modernise. We did grappling, head movement, pressure testing and sparring practically every class. His mantra is “If you can’t hit, you’re shit.”
Chain punching was taught as an endurance exercise, not a technique. In fact, his combos were typically 3 movements.
Now, maybe I’m wrong, but I loved his classes, and the fact he was trying to see through to the core of WC to extract something useful for the modern world. I don’t think it’s a useless art. I think the problem is the way it’s typically taught, with the mysticism and unquestioning quasi-religious fervour.
Hey Trav! Want to share my own experience about this.
In the very beginning of my martial arts training I went to a Jeet Kun Do gym (never knew what it was, my friend just invited me there). One of the aspects was this sticky hands technique. We even had this dummy with multiple wooden sticks to practice. And we also practiced in pairs, but without this hands bridge, instead it was from the default boxing stance. I had been going to that gym for 9 months, but the technique stuck with me from there on. What I utilised from it is that if someone makes a mistake and is not too keen to pull a jab or a cross back, and you time a small stepback (like the leanback that you teach in the head movement course) and the palm movement right (bring your hand down with a little movement and aim base of you palm at the opponent’s wrist), you can catch the hand near the wrist (slightly higher or at the base of the back side of his palm) and take a hold of it. I can do it with almost every sparring partner I have had since then and in almost every sparring session. It can translate into pulling the hand to open the head, break balance or another kind of such advantage.
It doesn’t work if the punch is executed well, but works if the opponent slightly overcommitted to the punch and didn’t get it back just in time.